ForumTouchy Subjects ► Shop lifting
We should take more sympathy on shop lifters and let them choose which hand they keep.
  
Talk about a Touchy Subject! ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
  
ONLY HALF AS TOUCHY AS BEFORE
  
I heard about /r/shoplifting before it got banned and the discussion was kind of interesting. A lot of the, uh, 'art'(?) would appear to be in evading the human Loss Prevention element.
  
Personally, I think reducing recidivism is more important than punishing someone.

Therefore I think we need to take both hands at the first infraction to prevent all future shoplifting by that particular individual.
  
Offhand, won't that increase motivation despite reducing means?
  
DIAV said:
Offhand
Uh-huh.

I don't think that's what "rehabilitation" means, though.
  
Well I think etymologically that's giving them new clothes, which could be somewhat ironic if that's what they were stealing in the first place. YMMV.
  
well i think everyone has pocketed a thing of life savers before..
  
That's one petty crime I have never done.
  
I have never stolen anything in my life and I can’t think of valid excuses.
  
I stole a loaf of bread.
  
One time I accidentally stole some deli chicken. I'd bought some chicken and some jalapeno poppers and didn't realize there were actually two barcodes on the bag that I needed to scan at self checkout, so I only actually paid for the poppers. Didn't notice until I was home. :(
  
Homeless shelters and food pantries.
Zia said:
One time I accidentally stole some deli chicken. I'd bought some chicken and some jalapeno poppers and didn't realize there were actually two barcodes on the bag that I needed to scan at self checkout, so I only actually paid for the poppers. Didn't notice until I was home. :(
Which hand do you want to keep?
  
Zia said:
Personally, I think reducing recidivism is more important than punishing someone.

Therefore I think we need to take both hands at the first infraction to prevent all future shoplifting by that particular individual.


Obviously neither. I live and die by my ideals, Marcus.
  
Yes, but what if you don't have homeless shelters or food banks around? In 1796 France there weren't a lot of options. In many places in the world today, there still aren't a lot of options.
What if what you're stealing is something vital to your survival (or someone else's survival), yet isn't provided by local services?
I agree that stealing in general is wrong. I'm just saying there are definitely circumstances where stealing is the lesser of two evils. Classic example: Heinz Dilemma.

Or if we're going beyond just petty shoplifting and into theft in general, what say some guy is stabbing people with a knife that he rightfully owns? Should stealing his knife from him still be punished?
  
If Baton Rouge has food pantries, I think it’s safe to say most cities have food pantries. I admit I’m being very US centric here. My opinions on stealing food aren’t the best; I go without eating for at least a week once a month. Sucks, but it’s not the end of the world.

With the Heinz dilemma (I think this covers the previous question as well): steal the medicine, give it to the sick lady, admit you stole the medicine and face the punishment. I once had someone ask me about stealing clothes during the winter because shit gets cold: Salvation Army store, ask people for their old clothing, if people don’t have old clothing then get fabric and learn how to sew, if that’s too much then animals provide a lot of materials for you to make clothes. That goes with food as well; there’s lots of animals you can kill for food and lots of plants available for food. Rodents and small animals and insects and reptiles and birds are ubiquitous. That’s probably better for you than whatever processed food or bread or whatever premade stuff you could steal. Even plants that books and field guides won’t list as “edible” can sometimes be eaten (e.g. acorns). If you’re starving then you don’t have the luxury of principles like not eating meat. Keep throwing hypotheticals at me until I concede, I love pissing in people’s Cheerios. (i.e. this is kinda fun). If you don’t know how to do any of that and can’t learn in a pinch then you’re SOL and I hope someone takes pity on you. If you’re in a place where jails provide food, well, you know where you can get food and a bed. How destitute are we talking here?

Edit: oh and those stages it’s talking about refer to what people focus on when they’re analyzing the question. They’re all equally valid, but reflect different stages in moral development. I’m instead choosing to focus on the law-and-order because I’ve got this raging hate-on for theft lately. Takes a little while to stop being mad about someone going through your car.

With that other situation though; that’s stopping a dangerous person from hurting people by confiscating the knife. It’s not theft. Theft is defined differently in different places, but I think that situation is one where we can agree with Justice Potter Stewart “I know it when I see it”. I usually hate that phrase, but ... come on, convince me that’s actually theft.
  
Shoplifting is good and we should give extra hands to people who do it
  
I go without eating for at least a week once a month. Sucks, but it’s not the end of the world.

Yo, shoot me a message if you're in a pinch. I will absolutely buy you a pizza or something, or just give you some money to go out and buy groceries. 100% serious and it's no skin off my back.

  • -------------------------------------

Anyway, on a more serious note. I think that stealing *can* be morally permissible in certain circumstances, but that if we're looking specifically in the United States and other similar countries, those circumstances are almost never going to arise for a typical person.

Situation where stealing is acceptable: say you're an 8 year old girl in some country where you're about to married off to a 50 year old man in an arranged marriage. Your outlook isn't so great. As far as I'm concerned, steal whatever you need to in order to get out of such a situation.

Situation where stealing is not acceptable: you're a 20 year old on the streets in Houston who hasn't even tried going to local food pantries, churches, et cetera for help.

That said, I do partially disagree with some of this: "if people don’t have old clothing then get fabric and learn how to sew, if that’s too much then animals provide a lot of materials for you to make clothes."

Fabric is ironically much more expensive than buying premade clothes. It's a luxury to be able to make your own these days. It's also often illegal in many places to kill animals, or it may be near impossible to obtain the weapons/tools needed to kill the animal. You also need a way to process the skins and stitch them together. I think that's a little unreasonable. However, one great solution would be to go somewhere like a local library or other community outreach office and ask for help finding places that give out clothes.
  
Arright, gonna go ahead and give the ol' pot a good stir, here.

Coldfrost said:
Should stealing his knife from him still be punished?
Theft is theft. Leave policing to the professionals, Batman.
  
Shoplifting is good and we should give extra hands to people who do it
Fight me right now shirts off go put your shoes on we gonna stomp this out.
Zia said:
I go without eating for at least a week once a month. Sucks, but it’s not the end of the world.

Yo, shoot me a message if you're in a pinch. I will absolutely buy you a pizza or something, or just give you some money to go out and buy groceries. 100% serious and it's no skin off my back.
Nah nah, please nah. You misunderstand. I put it badly. I’m just kinda tardy in the frontal lobe and forget to eat. I got food. I’m just dumb in the stomach and brain. I find myself realizing “I haven’t eaten in an entire week” then go out in search of easy food to eat.
Zia said:
Anyway, on a more serious note. I think that stealing *can* be morally permissible in certain circumstances, but that if we're looking specifically in the United States and other similar countries, those circumstances are almost never going to arise for a typical person.

Situation where stealing is acceptable: say you're an 8 year old girl in some country where you're about to married off to a 50 year old man in an arranged marriage. Your outlook isn't so great. As far as I'm concerned, steal whatever you need to in order to get out of such a situation.

Situation where stealing is not acceptable: you're a 20 year old on the streets in Houston who hasn't even tried going to local food pantries, churches, et cetera for help.

That said, I do partially disagree with some of this: "if people don’t have old clothing then get fabric and learn how to sew, if that’s too much then animals provide a lot of materials for you to make clothes."

Fabric is ironically much more expensive than buying premade clothes. It's a luxury to be able to make your own these days. It's also often illegal in many places to kill animals, or it may be near impossible to obtain the weapons/tools needed to kill the animal. You also need a way to process the skins and stitch them together. I think that's a little unreasonable. However, one great solution would be to go somewhere like a local library or other community outreach office and ask for help finding places that give out clothes.
Now should we look at that first situation as theft, or should we consider that fleeing an inhumane situation. I’m sure illegal migrants have to take things frequently. When you take gas from your neighbor’s car so you can leave your country for as far as the gas takes you, is that theft? What about when people you travel with take your food for themselves?

Now I was joking about killing and skinning animals or getting fabric. That’s absurd. I’m not really joking about killing them for food. But clothing is ubiquitous. I argue also that constitutes saving one’s own life. Louisiana has this messed up “shoot someone if they barge inside your house” permission, but you can still get charged with manslaughter or even murder if it is shown they were not a threat to anyone’s life nor a burglar.
  
As someone who works in retail, I can't say I can defend someone who shoplifts for any other reason than for necessity.

I can understand the poor doing it; they can't afford shoes. This shouldn't be mistaken for condoning it, oh no. A thief should be punished, regardless of financial status; but, I would argue for leniency for the person who steals out of necessity.

For the individual who steals to support a habit: They have a disease, and they must support their habit by any means necessary. Again, I do not condone stealing. I feel for the dependent, but like the poor, those who steal should be punished. In addition to their punishment, they should be enrolled in rehabilitation to help them free themselves of their dependency.

For the individual who steals for no other reason than for the thrill of it: They should be punished to the greatest extent of the law.
  
Possibly related: Shop-lifting.
  
Shoplifting is good and we should give extra hands to people who do it
Fight me right now shirts off go put your shoes on we gonna stomp this out.
Good luck beating me with all these extra hands I got.
I’m just kinda tardy in the frontal lobe and forget to eat. I got food. I’m just dumb in the stomach and brain. I find myself realizing “I haven’t eaten in an entire week” then go out in search of easy food to eat.
I do this all the time
A thief should be punished
Hot take: why? Every argument in this thread starts with the assumption stealing is inherently wrong and starts explaining why there are exceptions. Why does an unfeeling legal entity like Walmart deserve that can of horse dildos more than me, an actual person who will use them? Yes, horse dildos are sold by the can, don't @ me
  
Corporations are people too. ୧༼ ◕ д ◕ ༽୨
  
Forum > Touchy Subjects > Shop lifting