ForumTouchy Subjects ► Are there any conservatives here anymore?
Well that was the stupidest, most disheartening thing I’ve read in while.
“She was given an eight-week community order, placed on an eight-week curfew and told to pay costs of £500 and an £85 victim surcharge.” — who’s even being payed 85 pounds? Did the person who reported it decide it was so offensive that they needed 85 pounds? A curfew too? She said the n word so she can’t be trusted outside after like 8pm or so?
  
If it's like the Canadian victim surcharges, that goes towards funding services for the victims of crime. It's not given to a specific person.
  
But who are the victims though? I mean yeah I get it, it’s the whole community of people that got disparaged, but what programs does it go to? In Canada at least since you’re not UK. If you know, that is. I could be very much so misunderstanding but it doesn’t sound like there was any affront on a specific person. Just that one person decided to say something.

Edit: okay I read the article a second time, so it doesn’t mention one person reporting it, just that it got reported. Presumably by more than one person
  
It says the police were sent a screengrab anonymously, they forwarded it to their hate crime department which is headed by a black woman, and she was offended. So I suppose the policewoman was the victim. The £85 presumably goes towards helping other people who have also been offended by Instagram.
  
The victim is society, according to our legal system.
  
Imprisoning or removing someone because they don't share the same ideals and opinions you do? Are you being serious?

Have you ever heard of the Holocaust?


Seriously? Yes, I've heard of the Holocaust. It was about groups of minorities (Jews, LGBT, mentally ill, homeless, immigrants, etc) that were blamed and scapegoated for an entire nation's failings with all the reasons based on conspiracy theories fermented in racism and hate. You know, letting hate speech go unpunished.

I lived with my literal Nazi grandmother as a child and we are Ashkenazi Jew by heritage on my mother's side. I know full well the history of Nazi Germany and how the Jews were treated as we know nothing of my other grandmother's family since they were wiped out and erased, which might have happened to my mother, half-sister, or me had my grandmother not chosen a suicide attempt instead, landing her in nursing homes for the rest of her life.


Then surely you understand that no person should be punished for their beliefs, race, religion or ideals. Whether you agree with them or not? No one. Not one single person should be punished for being different than the masses. Im going to throw that minority word out the window because I'm tired of all this arbitrary made up division. People are meat sacks with flesh and bone and blood and we are one race, the human race.
They were people... PEOPLE who committed no crimes, did nothing. They just didn't fit into the box the media and government wanted them to fit into and so they were taken from their homes and they were slaughtered and not one person will ever justify anything like that to me. And I'm sorry but if you don't think the word bigotry hasnt been wrongly thrown around to justify being disrespectful to someone who doesn't agree with a person. You're wrong.
  
The victim is society, according to our legal system.
I see now. I was curious how these crimes were treated.
Millpond said:
The £85 presumably goes towards helping other people who have also been offended by Instagram.
This is kinda like when I’m filling prescriptions and wishing there was a big bucket all the pills were kept in instead of organized on shelves.
  
I don't think someone should be prosecuted for saying the N word. I think that they should be disliked because they are scum but not prosecuted. I believe that the right to speech is incredibly fragile. Words hurt but they are not fists.
  
I think technically all crimes are crimes against the Queen, but she's a stand-in for society. I expect it's the same in the UK since our legal system is based on theirs.
  
Opinion coming up:

The most effective and most realistic way to change the political views of people to a more left-wing perspective would be education during youth. The whole idea that "you can't tell them all this, they're just kids" seems like a direct effort to make them default to the conservative views their elders all share. But I think that it would be a good step in the right direction to sit down with your child, or any young relatives, on Earth Day for example. If you told them about where pollution is happening, how the biggest corporations are using so many non-renewable energy sources, it might give them something to think about. It's nice that public schools talk about individual carbon footprint, but that means almost nothing when even if you save as much power as you can, the people with a lot of money don't care if they dump trash into the ocean and kill wildlife.

This is just one topic but things like this can certainly be done for any political subject.
  
We need to move away from the stereotype that conservatism is always one generation behind us. That may've been true in the '60s, but I daresay we were all born since then. The older people in my family are very liberal.
  
I agree that it's not always. Worth mentioning how that became a stereotype though.
  
Never once have I ever seen a conservative group kick even a Nazi out, even when I was personally skirting the alt-right line myself (yes, I used to be conservative/libertarian about 7 years ago).
I believe you because I don't think you're lying, it hasn't been my experience. Conservative groups are very likely to be sexist, but I hardly ever find any racists.

The majority of racists aren't racists at all, they're people the left labels as racist. A common example would be the majority of white guys don't think they have privilege and this informs their attitudes and beliefs.

The left cries, "racist!" and I don't think its racist at all, I think its ignorant.

I don't think ignorance is synonymous with racism and I don't think subconscious bias is as bad as conscious bias.

If you label as a racist only those with conscious bias who intently believe that white people are superior, the number of racists dwindles to a very low number, probably the lower single digits.

The reason conservatives are known as racists is because the definition of racism becomes much more watered down and meaningless to the point now people are calling white people with dread locks racist, its gotten that ridiculous and meaningless of a word in far left circles.

Edit: Also, my last girlfriend was an Ashkenazi jew.

Also, also, I did not realize that your literal grandmother was a literal Nazi. It sort of explains a lot, but in a good way hear me out. I have strong feelings about things I don't like from my family of origin, and none of its as bad as Nazism.

I think I understand better why you are so careful and even going so far as to suggest that I'm an undercover Nazi. Having lived with and known a Nazi and also hearing your experience with conservative groups not ostracizing Nazis, I think I better understand why you would want to put safety limiters on free speech and also why you would consider conservatives to be racists. Given your personal experience, I really can't blame you.

It doesn't change my experience, my values, or what I believe, but I kinda just wanted to throw it out there that I think I understand you better and I can respect where you're coming from even if I don't agree with a lot of it.
  
@Unicorns, was it you who said you used to be alt-right, or am I confusing you with someone else?
  
eriophora said:
I haven't really seen evidence of wanting to make speech illegal by liberals. However, there is call to deplatform speech.
What about hate speech laws? That's definitely a left-wing policy, albeit an illiberal one if you think about it. (Note that the US legal system does not currently recognize the concept of hate speech.)


Largely depends on whether said hate speech is inciting or encouraging violence. Then it's not protected speech, nor should it be. I think it's a complex issue.
  
Yeah, but even I agree violent incitement should be illegal.

The problem is that there's popular idea, again I heard of this on Evergreen campus, that having "bad" ideologies that "inevitably" lead to violence are "violent" ideas/speech that need to be stopped.

Conservative speech is inherently racist, racism is violent, therefore conservative speech should be illegal.

It sounds dystopian, but that's the conclusions some people come to.
  
i hate bigotry.

i do, i really dislike it.

i think it's one of the worst things to spend your time doing.

don't be a bigot. and also, i'm a dick so see you guys in 1.5 days.
  
Bigotry tends to hide itself in a lot of things, and when you call someone out on their indirect hatred etc., it's always like they feel their separate beliefs are being challenged and they get defensive. Discourse is so annoying sometimes.
  
I mean I'd like to say I don't have bigoted sides of me, but in the strictest definition of the word I think I do and always will.

I am not a defeatist about it and believe I can improve and get better with age and practice, I just think life is too short to be able to reach perfection and maybe that's OK.

Anymore nowadays I emphasize right action over right perfection.
  
No there are still traces of it in me too. It's what happens when most of your life was like that. I'm trying to work on it as much as I can though, and I definitely feel progress. Of all things right now, my biggest hurdle has been acceptance of poly people. Many of my interactions with poly people happened to be with pretty rude ones and so it's just, a process. I'm getting over it, slowly.
  
My extent with poly is that I have a kind of live and let live policy about it, but I am old enough now to know there's some things about me that will never change and I will never be able to share multiple intimacies at once.

The closest I can come to being poly is to have short flings, but even then it has to be one at a time. Two flings with two different people at once is messy for me and no matter how evolved mentally I could get around the subject I just would never be emotionally happy about it and I'm not going to try to be anymore cuz its just trying to be something I'm not.
  
Last thing I'll say on this since it's off topic:

Yeah I'm with you Pheo. It's not for me, so I have an even tougher time understanding being poly. It feels like too much work and I don't have enough emotions to go around. But hey, to those who are able to do it just fine: hell yeah I'm glad you're happy.
  
Monogamy is technically conservative nowadays although polygamy used to be conservative and traditional if you go back in time far enough, haha. Its not really a political stance for me as much as it is a personal one.

Technically, nowadays, it does fall into conservative so it is another thing where I lean more conservative, technically speaking, but I don't want to legislate or enforce monogamy because I think that is a bad idea and even if it was a good idea its unconstitutional so I get angry at so called conservatives who want to enforce or legislate morality and value their religious ideals above the law of the land.
  
I don't think monogamy is especially conservative - it's the normal thing for people of most backgrounds. Accepting poly relationships is definitely on the further left side of being liberal, though.

I've never been in a poly relationship, but I think I'd be potentially open to it. I am frankly not a very jealous person and could pretty easily see myself having a close intimate relationship with a couple different people without feeling like I was sacrificing anything. Just, obviously tricky to make sure everyone would be on the same page there, and also obviously a terrible idea and toxic if they weren't.
  
I find that "Conservative" means something different depending on who you talk to. For some, it's about reasonable government spending, for others it's about small government, others emphasize the importance of traditional values. It seems, to me, less like a political ideology and more like a culture, one that's been manufactured by decades of politicians and media moguls using wedge issues like abortion and gun rights to convince disparate groups of people that they have unified interests. But, to be fair, Liberals are similar (liberalism is a political ideology, but modern Liberals hardly conform to it in all instances).

I recognize that probably sounds pretentious as hell, but I legitimately have never been able to see a consistent ideology between Tucker Carlson, conservative Christians, and the farmers I grew up around outside a small number of issues like gun rights and abortion. Outside of "culture war" issues, it doesn't seem like Conservative politics actually benefit the people who vote for it.

I guess my point is, I'd love to hear someone who considers themselves conservative actually define what that means to them. What's the political reasoning that makes you identify as conservative?
  
Forum > Touchy Subjects > Are there any conservatives here anymore?