ForumTouchy Subjects ► Religion 2.0
Edit: Now that I sit hear, I want to clarify that I didn't want to rip a hole in the universe on Mormonism. I just felt like certain things weren't being said and I don't mean any ill will towards anyone. Truly.
If anything you've made me curious enough to watch youtube videos about them. Honestly I realize other religions can be nuts too. Mormons haven't started any wars. Honestly I was thinking realize compounds and churches are the same thing and I just for some reason am weirded out by the word compound.
  
They nearly did with the US government.
  
Tell me about the would have been Mormon-America War.
  
Murderin some settlers baby!
  
Oh man they had a lot of wars, massacres and disputes. In order for Utah to be a state they had to give up polygamy. (Which was later removed as a condition I believe.)

Another link summoning.Poof!

Greyseff just linked mountain meadows. Beat me to it sort of lol thanks Greyseff.
  
Fair play to Samsung23 for putting their religion on the chopping block. Please don't take any criticism to heart, the same thing would've happened if someone else had said another religion.
  
To their credit Mormons do tend to be super pleasant. I often like to listen to evangelists on the street and Mormons are much nicer than Seventh Day Adventists or Church of Christ or the Krishnas.
  
Millpond said:
Fair play to Samsung23 for putting their religion on the chopping block. Please don't take any criticism to heart, the same thing would've happened if someone else had said another religion.
Honestly they made me really curious about their beliefs.
  
Honestly, there is a lot to unpack about Mormonism. A lot of it is usually hush hush from the public. To others I can see how it is interesting, wacky and crazy. I honestly find Paganism more interesting as there is so much there to unpack and read about. There also isn’t just one text to read from either. It honestly depends on what kind of Pagan you are.
  
Alright, I've done some digging.

So, let's address the things in the order they came.

(Cartoon video)
For choosing to be black, that is 100% false. Those that are dark skinned just have ancestors closer to the equator as a natural protection from the sun. Wikipedia

Also, that cartoon was not put out by the LDS church. I can count like 20 inconsistencies.
First, the Book of Mormon agrees on practically everything with the bible. Statement from LDS
Second, Joseph Smith never claimed to be Christ's descendant. Nor would you stand against him at the last day, only Jesus.
Third, the reason we have the name 'Mormon' is because of the Book of Mormon. The reason it was named that was because Mormon was the last one to write in it. Plus our official name isn't 'Mormons'; never has, never will. So why would an official video from the LDS church contain so much 'Mormon' interjected into every other sentence.
Fourth, we don't know if God had multiple wives, but seeing as how it's against the church, I doubt it.
Fifth, God didn't just waltz down to get Mary pregnant. We don't know how, but it certainly wasn't the typical way one would.
Sixth, Jesus was never proven to have any wives, let alone three. And as I mentioned, it's against the church, so highly unlikely.
Seventh, if you actually read the Book of Mormon, you'd know that both the reason the Lamenites and the Nephites were fighting wasn't over race.
Eighth, Joseph was a treasure seeker, but was commanded by God to have nothing further to do with those that sought treasure.Statement from LDS
Ninth, garments aren't what you think. They're more of putting up a U.S. flag on a U.S. ship. An outside declaration of what is inside. And granted, you may be blessed by wearing such garments.
The list keeps going but I'd rather not continue.

(JS chased out of Nauvoo)
As for Nauvoo, yes LDS members were in the government, but the reason they were kicked out was because they were advocating for black rights, and an order was signed saying that it was legal to kill a Mormon. Who the hell wouldn't run? ORDER 44

(JS and gunpowder face)
Where did you find that Joseph tried to hide his face?

($40 billion in companies)
A church needs money to function. Everything needs money to function. Temples and Churches are expensive. Plus have you seen what the church does to those in need?

(Anne Frank)
We never claimed that. Ever.

(Utah and porn)
Politicians have done worse. And plus, the risk of divorce doubles while actively consuming porn. Link

(Utah and suicide rates)
Where did you find that statistic? Over here it says that it's not even in the top five!

(Baptising someone's grave)
And to baptise someone we certainly don't baptise their grave. And if they believe it will help, sure! Why not?

(Magic Mormon Underwear)
As for garments, like I said earlier, they're practically declaring a U.S. ship to be owned by the U.S.

(Mountain Meadows Massacre)
As for the settlers, they were trying to be proactive instead of reactive at Mountain Meadows. Granted that does not excuse their actions, yet it explains them. The church even released a statement about it.

Hope this solves whatever you were questioning.
And if you have any more accusations, please do try to back them up with real evidence. Not someone buying a pair of garments and claiming to be mauled by a bear, nor a cartoon making fun of the church.

Edit: Edits were made to locate the origin of said sources. Unfortunately some people couldn't realize I was going down in order from top to bottom in this thread.
  
Looks like I was sorta wrong. Found this when I was reading about the Mormon "War" in 1838.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_violence#List_of_Mormon_wars_and_massacres
Nothing what I think of as actual wars but it seems like they may have had some fun with natives, but that seems a lot more to do with being settlers than it is their religion. Good bit of violence against them too though that this article sadly doesn't go much into.
  
A lot of it does read like the kind of stuff that was going on with Native Americans at the time anyway, and this was in Utah so it's Mormons. Certainly no afficianado of Utah history though so I'd never heard of any of them.
  
It is really hard to make a response when I do not know what things are being responded to without being quoted. .-. I’m going to formulate a response to this, because a lot of what you said was deflection and.... I don’t like that. Lol
  
I'll take a second here off topic. Samsung, I just want to appreciate you being open and informative about the Latter Day Saints.

Edit: It can be difficult to stand up firm and express a belief system in an area where you are the one man standing in it, so thank you for showing a perspective of the LDS from the inside out whereas I usually mostly hear about it from the outside looking in.

I always want to see what a belief system or a group of people view themselves. I know how I view it, I know how other people view it, and its always refreshing to see how other people view themselves.

For instance, it is true what the reservations are that people have about LDS, but its good to see that you don't believe or condone some of the bad stuff that people see looking at from the outside in. It further confirms my theory that people are generally good and they believe what they believe out of good intentions and a desire to be good and do good.

Having said all that, Latter Day Saints is one of my least favorite of the prominent religions in America. Yes, you guys have good manners and polite social graces, but that's about as far as it goes.

It really weirds me out that ya'll can't drink coffee because of church dogma and doctrine, but you can drink certain other drinks that I believe are worse than coffee. I can't remember which brands, maybe you could tell me, but I had Mormon acquaintances who were religiously obligated to decline coffee with me and then they'd crack open a cold can of poison that was far, far worse than coffee.

Some stuff in a can that made me shudder was perfectly OK with the religion.

That right there told me a lot about the dogma and doctrine specifically about LDS. Every religion has dogma that I don't like, but that whole no coffee rule of yours really takes the cake as far as weirdChamp religious beliefs I've seen in America.

For what its worth, I do like you guys better then the sects of Christianity that put weird black boxes on womens' heads and ugly dresses on their bodies and men grow ugly, unkempt beards. I don't know if beards being gangly and ugly is part of their religion or not, but I know none of them style or take care of their beard and they just look like hobos in nice button up shirts.
  
Now I barge in and interrupt.

God doesn’t exist. Religion always starts as some idea in some random guy’s creative head. Fiction.

Prove to me why God is real. Go. You can’t possibly change my mind but I’d like to see you try.
  
W_Licky said:
Prove to me why God is real. Go. You can’t possibly change my mind but I’d like to see you try.

But you make it so enticing.
  
W_Licky said:
Prove to me why God is real. Go. You can’t possibly change my mind but I’d like to see you try.
You say that like it’s a command.
  
W_Licky said:
God doesn’t exist. Religion always starts as some idea in some random guy’s creative head. Fiction.

Prove to me why God is real. Go. You can’t possibly change my mind but I’d like to see you try.
I'm not going to prove why God is real. I'm going to prove why other people think God is real.
Fiction has a very real effect on people. People in books and in TV and in games are fake, definitely, but people still get crushes and might at least subconsciously think of them as a friend, or a safe person, or some sort of positive relationship.
Religious books have the added benefit of making fiction sound like it does exist; it tries to blur the line between reality and fiction. That urge to do something that turned out good? God's will. Bad thing happened? God'll take care of you. Abuse happened? God did that to make you stronger.
And people subscribe to that belief because, this God is a safe person, is a friend, is your partner in all situations.
And if you see God in your own actions, it's easy to see God in everything. Divine will is everywhere if you believe in it.

And, for me personally? I like the placebo effect that comes from praying.
  
Well I mean we are now changing the topic of the thread to trying the love the existence of god. If we want to talk about that I’m game. The problem with the conversation of whether or not god is real or fake is pretty much the same conversation anyway you spin it.

Ultimately, you can’t test or prove a variable that cannot be controlled or observed. That variable being God. If you understand any part of scientific method… God simply can’t be. It is also no with my burden of proof to try to prove that because it’s not an extraordinary claim. I can tell you my morning by saying I had a bowel of cereal. Pretty normal right? Well if I told you a rainbow colored dragon flew out of my bedroom wall and flew me to work today, you probably would want proof.
  
What are you talking about? I’m not gonna ask for proof for that, that’s cool enough that I don’t care about proof there. Just let me believe in the dragon, man.
Wyyca21 said:
And, for me personally? I like the placebo effect that comes from praying.
Don’t undersell placebo, if it causes a noticeable difference then it causes a noticeable difference. I would love to be fully convinced that some sugar pills are Percocets.
Wyyca21 said:
Religious books have the added benefit of making fiction sound like it does exist; it tries to blur the line between reality and fiction.
It’s not that it makes it seem more real, it’s that it just adds more depth to it - gives you more to think about. In my experience at least.
W_Licky said:
God doesn’t exist. Religion always starts as some idea in some random guy’s creative head. Fiction.
How do you know this to be true? And even then if it is the case, so what.
W_Licky said:
Prove to me why God is real. Go. You can’t possibly change my mind but I’d like to see you try.
How about you try proving why it isn’t real. As an aside, this seems in direct contrast to when you called yourself open minded.
  
How about you try proving why it isn’t real. As an aside, this seems in direct contrast to when you called yourself open minded.


I just literally talked about this. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. It’s normal for me to live my day without an interaction from god. As well as it is normal to say I ate a bowl of Cheerios before work. However if I said a mystical light came down and a holy knight came down and blessed me with super powers… well there needs to be physical proof of that in order for it to be real and factual.

When Atheists say prove god, that is them laying the burden of proof on them. Atheists aren’t trying to sell disbelief. It’s the other way around. Religions, specifically Christians, like to push their beliefs on everyone else. Burden of proof is what atheists use to say, “alright, I’ll hear you out… but you have to prove it.”
  
W_Licky said:
Prove to me why God is real. Go. You can’t possibly change my mind but I’d like to see you try.
I believe some form of something or somethings that would fit the description of God or gods exist. In my own life I don't really see the value of trying to convince or persuade or prove that to other people.

From a religious background as a child, I struggled with my religion because it split me into almost two personalities. There was a constant war in my mind trying to convince myself to hold onto beliefs that didn't seem true because the penalty of losing those beliefs was eternal hell fire.

Letting go of it and finally accepting that the entire premise of religion was false has freed me and made me a whole person. I no longer search for a sacred scripture, nor for a perfect image of god, not even for specific rules or beliefs about this life or a possible afterlife.

I don't think it is valuable and I don't think that its something people should do.

I am no longer religious, not afraid of hell, and I do not feel obligated to evangelize people. I don't personally see a reason why, if God(s) were real, someone necessarily ought to believe in it.

Would it make you, an atheist, a better person? Probably not. Unless there were some benefit to your life or the lives of those you touched that stemmed from believing in God or gods, I wouldn't want to convince you of their existence and I certainly couldn't prove it to you.

I don't think a belief in a certain form, name, or image of God is necessary to live a good life or even a life that God believing people would consider godly, good, or holy.

Things like waking up to greet the day with a smile, persevering through challenges, being kind to your friends when you're feeling tired and don't feel like being kind... Quantifiable actions, behaviors, and ways of living that are healthy for you and healthy for others seem to be the cornerstone of the great minds who later get turned into religions anyways.

If an atheist can do this without a belief in god, are they not as godly as me? Perhaps godlier. If there is no obligation to live well except that you wish to live well and for no other reason, I find that admirable and commendable and I would have no incentive to persuade you of a belief in any god.

I don't think its necessary for your immortal soul, if we have one, I don't buy into all the inculcation and scare tactics that religion afflicts people with. I don't think its true or necessary to find the one true god and swear allegiance to him or her, I think that's a scam invented by religious people.
  
As for coffee and LDS, it's cause it's mega addictive. Same with alcohol, porn, tobacco, nicotine, marijuana, and many other drugs. And, I would like to know what poison we happily ingest.

Edit; There's no such superstition and I've got a two paragraph long link for you that you may be interested in reading.
  
Uhhh… caffeine… of any kind? Lol coffee can be decaf. It’s not the coffee that’s addictive. And honestly coffee isn’t nearly as addictive as painkillers or hard drugs. The reason Mormons don’t promote it is because of the superstition that “it turns your insides black.”
  
Energy drinks. I saw Mormons drinking energy drinks.
  
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