ForumTouchy Subjects ► Abortion: Ethics?
How so? Like financially? Yeah definitely. Imagine living in section 8 housing, not having health insurance, having no partner or family to support you, you just lost your job, you meet someone you like, you weren’t lucky enough to be raised to be highly mindful of various possible consequences of having sex (note: “not mindful of”, not “ignorant of”), you have sex with them, then suddenly you’re pregnant, and you don’t hear from them again.
  
As well as emotionally
  
Elaborate
  
Baby gonna come at you with a knife and stab you or something?
A fetus requires the specific support and sacrifice of one person to survive. A baby requires general support that can (essentially) be given by anyone.
  
I'm also not sure you understand how physically traumatic bearing a child is. It permanently damages your body.
  
Elaborate

Would you not fear for or worry about your child?
  
You’re starting to make a good pro choice argument especially considering you just read the thing about living in section 8 housing.
  
I'm saying it's a human life that doesn't deserve an abortion due to circumstances it can't control
  
Samsung23 said:
Not exactly
Because once it connects it will start growing
Otherwise it will just, well, die.

You know that about 25%-50% of fertilized eggs just die in spontaneous abortion by the parent's body right? Usually before the parent knows they're pregnant. So it doesn't "just start growing" - a lot of times, it just dies. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  
But, which is controllable. Murder or death.

Because there's quite a difference between passing on and getting killed
  
I still want you to answer what you think the hypothetical woman in the situation I gave you should do. Stop thinking about the baby for a little bit and think about only her instead. She is a living person and has the right to self-determination. No I am not necessarily calling abortion a means to self determination. Know that this is a very realistic hypothetical. Don't think about whatever mistakes she may have made in her life, just think about the situation she's in right now. If you want to make it less hypothetical, let me make a phone call and I will (if you want/need).
  
Hmm okay here's my questions:

Let's say a couple with fertility issues wants to undergo IVF to try for a baby. The doctors fertilize several eggs (easier to do a bunch at once, and you never know how many it might take to implant properly). As it turns out, the first round goes just fine and now the doctors have a bunch of extra frozen viable embros. So my question is, assuming you believe life begins at conception, what are they supposed to do with all the extras?
  • Keep them frozen, for the rest of time, so as not to kill them?
  • Keep them frozen and hope they'll get used someday, kind of like adoption?
  • Just rinse them down the drain?
  • ???

Second, slightly more serious question for anyone who considers themself "pro-life":
Miscarriages happen all the time, and there are many risk factors that can make it more likely a pregnant person will lose their pregnancy. In a world where abortion is illegal...
  • What's the appropriate response when someone suffers a miscarriage which could have been linked to decisions on their part?
  • More specifically, is a woman guilty of murder if she comes into contact with someone who has, say, a Rubella infection in public, which then causes a miscarriage? If she'd stayed home or thought to wear a mask, it wouldn't have happened, so it's her fault, right?
  • What about somebody with fertility/genetic issues that make it harder to produce a viable pregnancy? If a couple continues to try, despite knowing there's a good chance the fetus will die, are they also guilty of murder every time things don't work out?
  
To answer antimony, I think the solution would be adoption. If she gets an abortion, I will respect her choice, even if I don't think it's the right one.

To answer peridot, I think it would be nice if they were adopted by a couple unable to conceive for various reasons, but chances are they'll be rinsed down the drain.

In that hypothetical world, I'd think an investigation is likely to ensue. And no, I don't think it's murder if someone gets sick via a careless individual. But it depends on many more variables. Did she seek out said infected or just randomly come into contact? Was she careless intentionally? Was the person sick careless intentionally? And no, their intentions were to create life not kill.
  
Female-bodied people do not need to earn their right to bodily autonomy through making what you perceive to be the correct choices. Imagine investigating whether somebody ever smoked a cigarette or happened to work in rubber manufacture before giving them treatment for cancer. That would be insane. Also, "having sex" isn't a moral failing people deserve to be stripped of their basic right to their own body for.
  
I see your point

I was just trying to come up with a possible solution
  
Eating shitting fucking and breathing are the most basic acts of most beings and people are programmed to be ashamed of at least 2 of them
  
Pretty much yeah
  
Breathing is so embarrassing.

The solution is "mind your own damn business". If you can't be supportive to people during what is potentially a very traumatic time, settle for just not making it worse.
  
How is trying to stop murder a crime

Anyway, I have a question for you. Would you have wanted to be aborted?
If no, what makes your life any more valuable than theirs? If anything they have more doors open to them
If so, and this is a sincere question, if you would rather not exist why do you still?
  
Samsung23 said:
How is trying to stop murder a crime

Anyway, I have a question for you. Would you have wanted to be aborted?
If no, what makes your life any more valuable than theirs? If anything they have more doors open to them
If so, and this is a sincere question, if you would rather not exist why do you still?


i dont think its fair to ask why people would prefer to not be dead, and also ask why they havent killed themselves if they dont agree with not being alive
  
How is it any more fair to the baby they so well agree to kill
  
Abortion isn't murder.

I would much rather be aborted if my mother hadn't wanted me. I assume you're the one who I told this to in the QA section, but in case you aren't - I love my mother. Why the hell would I want her to suffer? Not that I'd want anybody to suffer, but especially why would I want to condemn my mom to that shit?
  
Then what is?
  
Killing something that's been born. A foetus is just a part of you. It's not its own entity. Bodily autonomy is important enough that we don't even make the system for post-mortem organ donation opt-out. You have to opt in, because it's assumed that you get to choose whether to give up your organs after you've already died, even thought it would save lives. If refusing to donate organs/blood isn't murder, which would be silly, then abortion isn't either. Why is that we value the freedom of living female-bodied people less than corpses?

And, also, if you aren't an organ donor, you can shut the fuck up about abortion.
  
I can see your point

And why do I have to shut up
  
Forum > Touchy Subjects > Abortion: Ethics?