ForumTouchy Subjects ► They’re fucking with time!
Permanent standard time is the only sane solution. The benefits are slight, but they exist. Productivity, health, wages, accidents, energy consumption, pollution, are all (again, admittedly slightly) improved under permanent standard time. The only benefit permanent DST has is that sales are increased. Not worth it.

Not to mention, we already tried this. Everyone hated it. The solution wasn't to go back to flip flopping every hour, because the corporations just lobbied to continue expanding DST to eat most of the year anyway in an attempt to boil the frog. The solution is to get back on standard time, and stay there.
  
There is no substantive difference between permanent ST and permanent DT. If particular groups of people find they'd prefer more or less daylight, they can make a one-time adjustment to the nominal time at which they start work/school.
  
Where's the school where students get to choose what time they start?
  
Not sure if that's a serious question, but the people making the decision in the case of schools would be the school administrators, with the input of parents or (in higher ed) students. Wall clock time is up to centralized government standards. When people's workdays start is just convention.

In fact, anyone in charge of scheduling could already effectively eliminate the ST/DT cycle for themselves by moving their hours of operation to offset it. Switching to permanent DT at the government level merely makes following a consistent schedule much simpler.
  
The point was serious. Obviously bosses can set the times they prefer, but students/workers can't.
  
There is no substantive difference between permanent ST and permanent DT. If particular groups of people find they'd prefer more or less daylight, they can make a one-time adjustment to the nominal time at which they start work/school.

Studies say there is. It's enough of a difference for the petroleum industry to put lots of time and energy into bringing back DST after it was eliminated. And enough to push for wider and wider coverage of DST over the year. Again, the differences aren't mindblowing but they point firmly in a single direction.
  
to me, daylight savings doesn't really make a difference. I can sacrifice an hour of sleep no problem. daylight savings is next sunday for me
  
Millpond said:
students/workers can't.
Minors shouldn't be deciding their own sleep schedule. Adult students and workers can choose when they go to work if they actually care about it. And regardless, the nominal wall clock time should have no bearing on the apparent solar time of day that work starts.
Studies say there is.
Far be it from me to contradict what "studies say", but the assertion that standard time is superior to daylight savings time makes, a priori, the same amount of sense as the claim that starting the calendar week on Monday is superior to starting it on Sunday. Or that a left-handed coordinate system is superior to a right-handed system. Or any number of other arbitrary choices between objectively, mathematically equivalent systems.

If there is any persistent empirically measurable difference between the two, it can only be the result of plain human stubbornness and/or irrationality.
  
Since I didn’t see any links from earlier, here’s a simple to read article from Northwestern Medicine’s website. Here’s the National Sleep Foundation’s position. Here’s an interesting article that might could be construed to be in support of keeping clock changes the way they are.

This is what I don’t understand with y’all: you’re fine with arbitrarily observing a one hour deviation in time, considering that we track time by planet’s rotation, which you have given no reason for other than “I like the sun” and “maybe it helps the economy” but not at all fine with what you’re calling arbitrary reasons for not having that arbitrary observance. I’ve given you basic resources on understanding the arguments for either keeping it the way it is or switching to permanent standard time. It’s also already been pointed out how the US experimented with permanent DST in the 70s and it was changed the very next year after people largely disliked it and finding that it didn’t stimulate the economy which is the same reason for doing it this time as well. Give me something better than “I like the sun” and “don’t be lazy, just wake up earlier” and “but maybe it’ll actually work this time”. If you would like more technical articles, let me know.

Also not all adult students can decide when they have classes. Mine are at fixed times that we have no say in. This is the same way with a lot of pharmacy, nursing, and medical schools.
  
If there is any persistent empirically measurable difference between the two, it can only be the result of plain human stubbornness and/or irrationality.

That's not necessarily true. Having more light in the morning vs more light at night can be a genuinely relevant difference to sleep schedules and whatnot.
  
The problem is that "the morning" doesn't correlate necessarily with the wall clock time.

My new stance is that we need to convert to UTC and abandon local timezones altogether so that people will stop pretending that 9 am is real.
  
Millpond said:
students/workers can't.
Minors shouldn't be deciding their own sleep schedule. Adult students and workers can choose when they go to work if they actually care about it. And regardless, the nominal wall clock time should have no bearing on the apparent solar time of day that work starts.
Studies say there is.
Far be it from me to contradict what "studies say", but the assertion that standard time is superior to daylight savings time makes, a priori, the same amount of sense as the claim that starting the calendar week on Monday is superior to starting it on Sunday. Or that a left-handed coordinate system is superior to a right-handed system. Or any number of other arbitrary choices between objectively, mathematically equivalent systems.

If there is any persistent empirically measurable difference between the two, it can only be the result of plain human stubbornness and/or irrationality.

Does it even matter what the reason is? Even if it is somehow irrationality — and I disagree with that. Like antimony said, permanent DST, wherever it has been implemented, has been quickly reversed. If it was a matter of just getting used to it, that wouldn't be the case — it really doesn't matter. You're not going to will it away by saying "but it's not rational!"

And I very much disagree with the assertion that there's no fundamental difference between particular shiftings of phase with sunrise/set cycles. One is (to be fair, depending on specific location within your time zone, but on average) more in sync with the other, it's kinda ridiculous imo to declare that that should be ignored cause you don't personally believe (again, despite evidence) that the two can relate to each other.
  
daylight savings still hasnt come yet for me, it's on the 27th but recently I've been waking up wayyyy earlier than I was like a week ago
  
The problem is that "the morning" doesn't correlate necessarily with the wall clock time.

My new stance is that we need to convert to UTC and abandon local timezones altogether so that people will stop pretending that 9 am is real.
You’re gonna have to do better than “time is a social construct”.
  
I'm with Hydrogen, it's the same either way. Whether we stick with the current system, permanent Standard Time, or permanent DST, schools, businesses, and people will adjust their schedule to match. Stuff like "what time school starts" isn't uniform across a state - the further east in a time zone you are, the earlier the sun rises for you.

Part of the pushback in the 70's was because we enacted DST on Jan 6th, which was basically the worst time of year for it to go into effect. The whole country got an adjustment that was worse than the usual DST adjustment.
  
It's beyond the one instance in the US and that still doesn't invalidate the empirical evidence.
  
permanent DST, wherever it has been implemented, has been quickly reversed. If it was a matter of just getting used to it, that wouldn't be the case
If it was quickly reversed, how can you claim people wouldn't get used to it in the long term? Did organizations have time to recalibrate their operating hours?
And I very much disagree with the assertion that there's no fundamental difference between particular shiftings of phase with sunrise/set cycles.
You're gonna have to explain what you mean here. There is objectively no physical difference in light levels between a schedule based on waking up at 7 am DT and one based on waking up at 6 am ST. If we assume that the wall clock time people wake up is a fixed law of reality, then there would be a meaningful difference. But there's not because - yes, antimony - wall clock time is merely cultural/conventional.

And thank you, Fwip. I was beginning to feel like I was taking crazy pills. 😂
  
permanent DST, wherever it has been implemented, has been quickly reversed. If it was a matter of just getting used to it, that wouldn't be the case
If it was quickly reversed, how can you claim people wouldn't get used to it in the long term? Did organizations have time to recalibrate their operating hours?
And I very much disagree with the assertion that there's no fundamental difference between particular shiftings of phase with sunrise/set cycles.
You're gonna have to explain what you mean here. There is objectively no physical difference in light levels between a schedule based on waking up at 7 am DT and one based on waking up at 6 am ST. If we assume that the wall clock time people wake up is a fixed law of reality, then there would be a meaningful difference. But there's not because - yes, antimony - wall clock time is merely cultural/conventional.

And thank you, Fwip. I was beginning to feel like I was taking crazy pills. 😂

Shortness is relative. The US took from January to October. Russia and the UK both abandoned their attempt after 3 years. If people were going to become used to it, they would have.

You're ignoring 2 important factors. 1) Again, it's a matter of phase. 2) Wall clock time is not a fixed law of reality, but it is fixed. Schedules are fixed to the wall clock time. People are fixed to their schedules. Circadian rhythms are tied to the sun, not the wall clock time. So the relationship between the wall clock time and the sun matters.

Experts say that Daylight Time pulls circadian rhythms and the sun further out of sync than standard time. Right or wrong, regardless of mechanism, broad evidence agrees that Daylight Time is worse and that it is not ever fully adjusted to. And this empirical evidence is collected accounting for latitude, for relative position within each time zone, accounting for many things that you aren't, and that you can't just make that go away by saying "but see, there's a construct involved here somewhere."
  
Schedules are fixed to the wall clock time. People are fixed to their schedules.
If that's actually true (historically, it can't be absolutely true, since we don't all wake up at the same time as each other, or as the average person did in 1500, or as other cultures around the world), then we should seriously switch to UTC for the sake of people's health. If people can't be trusted with clocks that are almost-but-not-quite correlated with the sun, then we need to break the illusion.

Anyway, I'd be totally fine with permanent Standard Time. I don't care either way. But if we end up staying on Clown Time because the House can't agree that it's worse than Daylight Time, this is going to come to fisticuffs.
  
Schedules are fixed to the wall clock time. People are fixed to their schedules.
If that's actually true (historically, it can't be absolutely true, since we don't all wake up at the same time as each other, or as the average person did in 1500, or as other cultures around the world), then we should seriously switch to UTC for the sake of people's health. If people can't be trusted with clocks that are almost-but-not-quite correlated with the sun, then we need to break the illusion.

Exactly. Something I haven't brought up yet that is actually pretty important: Those studies I mentioned didn't just study areas where permanent Daylight Time is in effect. They also studied places where this is *effectively* the case, such as on the extreme ends of timezones. On average, Standard Time is best suited to the most people. But on the opposite extreme ends of the above hinted-at time zones, Daylight Time might actually be slightly more in sync. The jump itself causes problems, either time made permanent would help with that. Daylight Time on average is much worse than Standard Time, so permanent ST and that's dealt with, too. And the last little bit of problem is those slices where that phase difference is flipped around.

One thing I've seen people mention is scooching the time zones over so that those places are eaten by the neighboring more-friendly time zone, but I haven't yet wrapped my head around that solution. Other solutions are a lot more radical like more granular half-hour time zones, abandoning timezones entirely like you said, or something even more out there. If the timezone shuffle works, that's probably the most likely to be able to succeed. But the whole point of timezones is to pull the wall clock out of sync with the sun, and while that can be alleviated somewhat it's not going to go away until we #AbolishTimezones.

And about the current bill in the US, as long as it passes, I think people will eventually switch to ST. That's typically the pattern, after all. I definitely won't be unhappy if permanent DT happens, even if I do start yelling louder after that. "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good" and all that.
  
Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly.
  
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