ForumTouchy Subjects ► The NSA and the USA PATRIOT Act
The National Security Agency and the Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001.

Both formed and passed in October of 2001 in response to the 9/11 terrorist attacks. The PATRIOT Act permits the NSA to intercept foreign/foreign and foreign/domestic calls and other electronic messages secretly without a warrant. It mandates that the NSA obtain a FISA warrant for domestic/domestic calls secretly. Many people worry these interceptions infringe upon Fourth Amendment rights (unlawful searches and seizures) and rights to privacy.

I argue that during a state of war, heightened security, or legitimate threats (such as now, considering the recent attempts in New York and the underwear bomber), that national security take precedence over certain rights to privacy. I do, though, say that when the NSA is able to see what I do in my own house live, then it become unnecessary.

But I still hold that national security is the first priority. Without the nations security, then the right to privacy does not exist.

Thoughts?
  
I think the patriot act is terrorism. I want my 4th to be broken like it was during the cold war. do it behind my back with closed doors. I don't really want it this way, but its going to happen one way or another and this would be my preference. The patriot act is another step towards communism.
  
Do you mean dictatorship, or fascism? Communism is an economic system.
  
If it makes you feel better you can use those terms. But, communism does mean a single person or party control over everything in a totalitarian state (this includes more than just the economy).
  
Not necessarily. Communism means that the government is in control over keeping everyone even and equal, but the government can still be democratic or representative, and therefore still run by the people. Communism != totalitarianism.
  
In theory. It's supposed to be for the people, but pure communism isn't in use. It's now, if I'm correct, Stalinism.

I think the NSA has enough checks and balances to be safe. Some even call it cumbersome.
  
Not necessarily. Communism means that the government is in control over keeping everyone even and equal, but the government can still be democratic or representative, and therefore still run by the people. Communism != totalitarianism.


Implying that democracy exists with lobyists
  
I don't understand your point.
  
I don't understand your point.


Lobbyists = Bribers

With bribes, all officials become corrupt. (or at least the majority)
  
This really belongs in a different thread.
  
The communism part, yes.
  
I never quite understood why people are so vicious towards communists.
  
Because communism openly limits the potential of the individual. Although on the plus side there's a safety net that holds people. Theoretically, the entire culture is "middle class", but you can only ever be "middle class".
  
The PATRIOT act means that the terrorists have won. The government was terrified enough to give up some of our rights (not that they cared anyway). The terrorists have terrified us.
  
Simply because we are afraid does not mean we have bowed to their wishes. It means we have opened out eyes and realized the world isn't bunnies and rainbows. There are dangerous people out there, and need stopped. The NSA helps do that.
  
Ehhhhh..

I'd rather not give the government an opportunity and reason to spy on us. Honestly, the group that caused the 9/11 attacks, we've been watching them since Bush senior was in office. We had the intelligence and technology to destroy them then, way before they decided to crash some planes into the twin towers.

It just doesn't seem right to me, all of it. And so I'm suspicious of the PATRIOT Act and the true intentions of the government. But I mean, it's the government... There's always deals being cut in the background.
  
I think that it can be okay for the government to temporarily suspend certain rights in emergency situations. The problem with the Patriot act, or in my case the Canadian Anti-Terrorism Act, is that they are permanent, and often target certain groups. While it may not say "Arab" or "Islamic" anywhere in the act, they are still the people who will be targeted by the law. This can cause significant damage in the long run, that may not be as problematic if the laws are only imposed during times of emergency.
  
Slash, since they're permanent, can be used to target others in the future, baselessly. So, say we get a Stalin in office, or say, a Hitler... Or a McCarthy. :/
  
Communism is actually far better than capitalism in the simple fact that it works on paper cleanly ensuring at least human rights for everyone. In practice, it is a tool of dictators and tyrants and thus doesn't work as intended.
As for the NSA and Patriot Act, I believe that part of the issue is quite simply the unwillingness of our government to accpet that we have a legitimized enemy. When all of our threats to our nation is coming from a single source, we shouldn't be strip searching old women and listening in on phone calls between two elderly men talking about going fishing. Yes, it may be vastly politically incorrect, but the point is that a more focused effort would save lives and citizen's "privacy". I don't recall the exact term, but a frequently occuring in courts and such is the phrase "right to privacy" (correct me if I'm using the wrong words.) which as a matter of fact does not exist. Nonetheless we shouldn't be hassling our citizens over international terrorists unless there is proof of need.
A bad example, but an example nonetheless is during World War II, when Japanese citizens were seperated from the American populace, during which time no Japanese terrorism occured. This means that the focus may have to an extent worked. The methods are clearly wrong, separating a population from the public at the current time would be horrible for many reasons, but by focusing on the source of the problem, we wouldn't have to deal with all of these infringements that don't directly violate our rights, but could be misconstrued as terrorism themselves.
  
The problem is that 'we' includes those people whose rights you intend to infringe. American citizens are American citizens, whether you're scared of them or not.

I'm not going to touch your argument about the Japanese internment camps.
  
I'll touch it, Fwip... That didn't come out like I meant it to. <_<

No Japanese terrorism occurred, because there were no Japanese terrorists. Not a single Japanese-American was prosecuted for terrorism during that time. What the U.S. government did to the Japanese-American citizens was completely out of line and in violation of the constitution. If there had actually been a Japanese-American terrorist attack some kind of action would have been acceptable, but even then setting up fucking concentration camps for Japanese-Americans was an absolutely despicable thing to do.
  
Just because something has been used by dictators doesn't mean we can never, ever use it and it will always be bad.
  
Let me clarify, I never said that communism cannot and will not work, I was merely stating that it has been associated as a tool of tyrants and dictators. I personally would not enjoy following such a system, because I don't believe someone else would know what to do with my money. Nevertheless, with the right population, it could be a highly effective economy.

Fwip, my point about "those people" is the fact that (within America) we harass American citizens who entered our nation legally or whose forefathers did, yet we protect foreigners and break our backs for them. The fact of the matter is that American citizens deserve rights in America, rights that are clearly underkept. To cut a long discussion short that could be a doctorate thesis, America these days is acting as though by legally entering as a citizen, you are essentially a cow visiting a slaughterhouse. They will violate you at will. As a foreigner or illegal immigrant, you are granted a slew of rights and beneficial exclusions that often sets you safely above our poor. As soon as you become a citizen however, you might as well amputate both of your legs. All in all, America needs to start caring for Americans.

Ninja, I didn't say that I advocated anything similar to the Japanese camps, as I said, it was a bad example, something that was done wrong to begin with. But the fact is that the ideology behind the purpose, not the act, was solid. As Sherman's infamous march to the sea, many crimes were commited unnecessarily, but all resistance was cleared. Without his nearly insane act, the war would have run up to an estimated five years longer (at longest assumption, shortest I found was one year).
Also, as a part time historian about specific hitoric time periods, I strongly dislike WWII historical errors fueled by propoganda. This involves the weak defense of Poland and their army and airforce, the position France held in screwing the Allies multiple times, the strength of the Germans, the reason Japan was bombed, and Japanese terrorists amongst others. There were Japanese terrorists, but none in the mainland U.S. This may not be a result of the camps, although this is in fact a speculation point still argued.
  
Ulti, (may I call you Ulti?), I agree that the government has become too intrusive of our privacy. However, I don't think I agree that non-citizens have *more* rights or privileges than citizens. Whether they have more or less than they should is debatable, but I believe it is easier to be a legal citizen than be here illegally.
  
Fwip, certainly, Ulti is fine, and yes you could debate on forever about how much rights we give foreigners. Our government indeed is too intrusive, not to mention straight out lying. Calling us a capitalist society at times, but then giving us Social Security, a fundamental part of socialism for example. Living here illegally in many states does have quite a few benefits depending on how you want to live. You won't be living as a middle class American, but you won't be going hungry if you use the system to your advantage. After all, you don't have to pay for any form of taxes, have free health care, and in many states are nearly impossible to be deported unless you commit a felony.
  
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