ForumTouchy Subjects ► Atheism
Fwip said:
That's some fine whataboutism there.
I don't think it's whataboutism to talk about different countries. I acknowledged that Atheists face some ill-will in some parts of the US, but this thread isn't exclusively about the US. To my mind, if the topic is persecution of Atheists, then it makes sense to start from the top down, ie to discuss the worst treatment first. I think we can all agree that treatment of Atheists varies by country.
  
Eh. I don't think worst-case situations should always dominate discussion. To me, it makes sense to talk about things and places I have more experience with. I can speak with more knowledge and an understanding of the culture surrounding it better as well as have a direct personal impact on finding solutions.

By this logic, we shouldn't really talk about casual racism and similar at all.
  
Edit: Deleted my unproductive bickering.
  
Saying that Atheists consider themselves superior....NO.
Almost any religion think themselves the most true or superior
  
A lot of atheists are dicks about it though. I think prayer is daft, but I don't tell people off for doing it. Yea there are asshole Christians who knock on your door and talk about Jesus as if I'm literally missing a piece of myself too, but it doesn't excuse rude atheists.
  
Saying that Atheists consider themselves superior....NO.
Almost any religion think themselves the most true or superior


Isn't the point of Christianity that everyone sins tho?
  
Everyone sins, but the reason we have so many religions in the first place is because people think that their idea is more true than everyone else's. Just because you sin doesn't mean you're going to be complacent, accept you can't be perfect, and stop caring that people around you aren't getting taught the right information.
  
Seems like a suitable thread to say: dibs on your soul 44locks. Also welcome to the forum.
  
44locks said:
Saying that Atheists consider themselves superior....NO.
Almost any religion think themselves the most true or superior


Isn't the point of Christianity that everyone sins tho?


John 14:6 New International Version (NIV)
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


Sure sounds like they think non-Christians don't deserve eternal paradise to me.
  
Listen, the bible says a lot of stuff that we don't actually follow. No pork, no mixed fabrics, no half of all seafood, you gotta marry the girl you rape, the book hasn't exactly aged well and so most followers are gonna create their own version that suits them. The current pope of the catholic church says atheists can go to heaven, I'm not even catholic but that sounds good to me so i'm gonna adopt it. We can say that the majority of all non-violent christians believe that anyone can get into heaven if they do good works (so exempting calvinists and other predestination peeps, latter day saints (if they even count), and westboro baptist etc).
  
@Gray: Two thoughts on that. First, many Christians believe that while all who are saved are saved via Christ, that doesn't imply that they are all professing Christians or even that they know who he is. It's biblically consistent to believe that confession of sin and profession of faith in Jesus are sufficient but not necessary for salvation. Second, the Christian doctrine of salvation has nothing to do with just deserts. No one deserves forgiveness and communion with God - it's a free gift to all people, despite our unworthiness.

Edit:
We can say that the majority of all non-violent christians believe that anyone can get into heaven if they do good works
No orthodox sect of Christianity (including Catholics, Orthodox, and all mainline Protestants) professes that.
  
Just wanted to point out that Christians in general (if they follow the bible) believe that the only way to heaven is through Christ, not good works or good thoughts, just following Christ to the best of one's ability. If I'm not mistaken, all and any sin except the rejection of the holy spirit can be forgiven.

Can I ask what the Biblical basis for getting in to heaven without professing the faith or knowing Jesus is? That is new to me.
  
I don't believe there's a strictly scripture based logic to it, but more of how we view God. The general consensus is a just God would not reject unbaptized babies/still births. The atheist thing in particular pope Francis said after an orphaned boy asked if his father is in heaven even if he was atheist, and he said "God has a father’s heart and, would God ever abandon a non-believing father who baptizes his children? God was certainly proud of your father, because it is easier to be a believer and have your children baptized than to be a non-believer and have your children baptized."
He also thinly "suggested" that it's better to be a good atheist than a hypocritical catholic.
Oh he also penned a letter that basically said for those without faith the way to avoid sin is to follow their own conscience, and God's mercy still stays if you have a sincere heart. (this basically isn't even catholicism at this point but im liking this better).
  
I mean, that just raises the awkward question: if we don't look to the Bible to understand God and inform our view of justice, but instead at our own view of justice to inform our understanding of God, why bother with God at all?
  
I think the bible and church are a sort of guiding light. It is certainly possible to find your way without them, and also to get lost with them, but they help you get there.

I'm not actually religious, but that is a view I've heard expressed by religious people that sounds reasonable to me.
  
I hate to be that guy, but almost all of Paul's epistolary contributions are a refutation of that idea. Eventually, reading the Bible solely as a guide becomes an exercise in confirming your personal beliefs and adding divine weight to your personal moral compass.
  
This Paul guy sounds like a jerk. :P
  
Most Christian churches are indeed heavily influenced by Paul, but not everyone agrees. There is a significant critique from Jesuism, which claims that significant portions of mainstream theology are at odds with what Jesus actually said.
  
I think the point is that if you only follow what the book says to the letter instead of like,, the whole feel of it/lesson of compassion? You might as well just be worshiping a book, which would be really outdated and frankly kind of ridiculous.
  
Personally I would agree, but there are a fair few tub-thumping biblical literalists out there.
  
It isn't about following the letter over the spirit, it's that if the Bible is a hand-wavry guideline you are essentially saying "my personal moral compass is God given, despite no evidence to support that."
  
There's lots of evidence, just look at all these passages in the Bible that agree with me. :P
  
I don't believe but my parents are hardcore Catholics so oof. I don't really care what I do or say though as long as I know what I believe and I stick with what feels right.
If there was a god why would his number one priority but us worshiping him? Sounds self-centered to me
  
I think we have to be careful to distinguish between the many descriptions of god in various religions, and the idea of god. As I understand it atheism specifically rejects all variants. A lot of the arguments I hear are directed against some of the more fundamentalist Christian conceptions, without addressing the possibility that god exists but isn't like that.
  
yall said:
If there was a god why would his number one priority but us worshiping him?
I'm no expert in theology, but it's my understanding that it's not God's number one priority that we worship him? Jesus was often very explicit in his disdain for people who were very 'holy' and did many churchy things but then didn't follow through by being kind, compassionate, giving people. Basically all of Matthew 23 is him cussing out the Pharisees for being hypocrites in this regard.